Of course we weren't asked to help. The government (Sadam) hated us. Plus, if any citizens asked for help, they'd be shot on the spot. They were all living in fear, never knowing when they'd die. They're plenty grateful for us stepping in. They didn't do anythin to warrant an attack, cept u kno...basically killing whomever they wanted every day...which is basically a mass genocide of their own people.
Canadian Politics
creepindeth04
Moderator
Strubes said:
Yes and their own people should have stood up a long time ago. No that doesnt warrant an attack from us.
creepindeth04
Moderator
Strubes said:
And who's to say that we should attack Iraq? Chance or no chance. Why would anybody want to live under those conditions? Like I said Im willing to fight for my country and our way of living and Im not going to let anybody take away my rights and if that means dying for them then so be it. I will not let someone control me like Saddam was controlling his people. I take my rights and my way of living extremely seriously. If people live in fear then that's there own fault. There is plenty of genocide happening all over the world. Again I ask why Iraq first?
creepindeth04 said:
And again I ask why not? You didn't answer that. You just answered my question with a question. Here, I'll answer yours. Iraq is first because the people there aren't CAPABLE of protecting or standing up for themselves, and it's not their fault, it's how it's been ever since they were born.
creepindeth04
Moderator
Strubes said:
Ive anwsered your question a long time ago when you answered my question with a question also. I know it's not their fault. Everyone is capable of standing up for themselves. It's whether or not they choose to do that or live in fear. Like I said if I would rather be dead or try to leave the country rather than live under a tyranny like Iraq.
creepindeth04
Moderator
Strubes said:
Like I said Id rather die than live under a crap tyranny. Like so many people have said before me, especially the line from braveheart, they can kill me do whatever they want but they wont take my freedom or my spirit. I said I would stand up for myself. You keep twisting my words. You know what, Mexico didn't have any actual weapons either yet they were able to fend off France for their independence.
This isn't olden days. This is nowadays...where Sadam would use chemical weapons on his own people...one of the main reasons we went in. How am I twisting your words? I never said you wouldnt' die for what you believe in. I'm jus saying the situation they were in, would be suicide. But, that's all in the past, cause we stepped in and helped em out.
creepindeth04
Moderator
Strubes said:
I know what days we're in. It doesnt change my principles or my rights. I willing to die for the rights and freedoms that I have. I know that's in the past. All this time all Ive been saying is that we could have done something else rather than attacking. You're going to go into the arm forces, how do you explain veterans on the streets begging for money? Why can't we help our own first? Especially those who have already fought so we can live like we do today? It just doesnt make sense to me. The times we are in call for more intelligence with the same amount of brute force. Brute force alone is not the way. We should have focused on other things.
Edit: We'll continue this tomorrow. Im going to get some rest. :z
How about the veterans that stand proud today? A mass amount of veterans that are out on the streets..and I know this for a fact..are people that have had problems even before joining the wars they did. They couldn't kick a habit, or gambled too much. Now look at them? That's their own fault. That's how I explain veterans out on the streets. I never tried to change your principals or beliefs. I don't know where you got that from. What you do is your own thing.
creepindeth04
Moderator
Strubes said:
Not asleep yet.
I never said that you are trying to change my beliefs. So dont worry about that. How about the veterans that werent like the ones you describe? Im sure some have had problems before they enlisted, but not all of them. I have nothing against the ones who stand proud today, so I dont know why you brought that up. Not only that but we have so many people unemployed (Im not including lazy people and freeloaders). We have immigration problems, we're losing jobs to outsourcing. And countless other problems and I feel we should fix those problems first before we try anything with another country, unless they attack us first.creepindeth04 said:
Maybe you are right on this. Maybe Stealth isn't showing much hatred. But I do sense the same arrogance he accuses me of from him. And I do see that this topic is getting more and more personal. It's no longer a topic about Canadian politics. It's about Canada's opinion of the U.S based on things we do. But I guess I shouldn't develope an opinion about a country who doesn't do squat to benefit the global community.
I was also speaking about how to get out of Iraq. I no longer care about the motives in getting into Iraq. It's a stupid argument. And all it has doen is piss people off and accomplish nothing. And although I disagree about the motives in going to Iraq, all I care about now is getting out. People against this war have complained and ranted about it for a long time. Now it's time to do something.
I want our troops to come home. That way we won't have to worry about them on a daily basis. And life will get back to normal. You know, barbeques, football, and talk about how weird those redheaded stepchildren to the north are.
stealth toilet
Moderator
In all honesty I'm willing to call this arguement done and just let bygons be bygons. Dart, You have defended your side admirably and admittedly I learned a couple things I did not know. And Strubes and CID have an arguement goin on that I'll let them resolve on their own. But I do love a good rebuttle, so here goes anyway:
Do nothing? I believe we sent more aid to India (and a lot quicker) when the Tsunami hit than the US, keeping in mind our country has about 25 mil people in it, total, compared to the U.S.'s well over 300 mil. We also send thousands of peacekeepers all over the globe, to keep peace, not make war, and we are insturmental in providing food and water to refugees and displaced peoples all around the globe. Just because we don't start wars, and get into international conflicts that make the front pages of American newspapers, it doesn't mean we "do squat to benefit the global community." Jesus, you didn't even hear of what went on between the leaders of our two countries, and now you're trying to tell me about Canada's foreign policy?
I understood what you meant beforehand, and I will admit that it is a very valid point. But (because my knowledge of this is lacking) I would like to ask, who issued this ban on the sale of weapons to Iraq? What was it in response to? And is it still in effect? Until these questions are answered I don't think it strengthens either your case or mine.
Denying the holocaust is fairly difficult, with all the evidence that is available and with the problem of accounting for the 6 million people who died during the Holocaust if they're still alive, it's not an argument that really holds water. I was just trying to point out that it's just as likely for the US to be involved in a conspiracy as it is to think the UN is involved in a conspiracy, and in my opinion the former is more likely. But I am by no means right. And in today's day and age skepticism is something that we should try to keep in mind. News Networks get paychecks from someone, and that someone has a set of beliefs, biases, prejudices, and values, just like the rest of us. So don't accept anything at face value, do your own research, find out for yourself what you think is right. If you've done that (which it sounds like you have Dart) then I really don't have any problem with you.
And I don't have a seething hatred for the US. Like I said before, you guys are basically just like us. What I do hate about the US is the fact that you impose your government, your values, and your beliefs on foreign nations. You truly do believe that you are the pinnacle of civilization, and debatably you are. But what I think the US tends to forget is that not everyone agrees with you. Not everyone sees democracy and capitalism as an appealing ideology or form of government. Not everyone wants to be a part of Western culture. And in fact some people are willing to do some very desperate things to get that point across (hence 9/11).
And I also believe that America uses this guise to interfere in foreign politics to meet their own ends. Since the Pinochet coupe in Chile I have not trusted the American government to interfere in other countries affairs. When America "brought democracy" to Chile they brought in a brutal dictatorship and forced the country into a third world state just as they were beginning to rise out of poverty. I know this because I know people that were there at the time and managed to escape to Canada. So I do not hate the US, but I do not trust the government (especially the current one) or the media, and all I'm trying to prove in this discussion is that the American people could be being fed false information. At the same time, I realize I could be too, so I freely admit I very well may not be right and I do accept views to the contrary as long as they are well informed.
Haha, touche, in response to that cheapshot (don't worry, I'm not offended, I honestly thought it was funny) I shall quote Chatterbox from GTA "Football's an American sport that teaches good old fashioned American values, like, stealing other people's land."
Honestly Dart, if you want to just agree to disagree I'm willing to do that. We are never going to agree and these posts take a lot of time to make, lol. I just don't have the energy...
Do nothing? I believe we sent more aid to India (and a lot quicker) when the Tsunami hit than the US, keeping in mind our country has about 25 mil people in it, total, compared to the U.S.'s well over 300 mil. We also send thousands of peacekeepers all over the globe, to keep peace, not make war, and we are insturmental in providing food and water to refugees and displaced peoples all around the globe. Just because we don't start wars, and get into international conflicts that make the front pages of American newspapers, it doesn't mean we "do squat to benefit the global community." Jesus, you didn't even hear of what went on between the leaders of our two countries, and now you're trying to tell me about Canada's foreign policy?
I understood what you meant beforehand, and I will admit that it is a very valid point. But (because my knowledge of this is lacking) I would like to ask, who issued this ban on the sale of weapons to Iraq? What was it in response to? And is it still in effect? Until these questions are answered I don't think it strengthens either your case or mine.
Denying the holocaust is fairly difficult, with all the evidence that is available and with the problem of accounting for the 6 million people who died during the Holocaust if they're still alive, it's not an argument that really holds water. I was just trying to point out that it's just as likely for the US to be involved in a conspiracy as it is to think the UN is involved in a conspiracy, and in my opinion the former is more likely. But I am by no means right. And in today's day and age skepticism is something that we should try to keep in mind. News Networks get paychecks from someone, and that someone has a set of beliefs, biases, prejudices, and values, just like the rest of us. So don't accept anything at face value, do your own research, find out for yourself what you think is right. If you've done that (which it sounds like you have Dart) then I really don't have any problem with you.
And I don't have a seething hatred for the US. Like I said before, you guys are basically just like us. What I do hate about the US is the fact that you impose your government, your values, and your beliefs on foreign nations. You truly do believe that you are the pinnacle of civilization, and debatably you are. But what I think the US tends to forget is that not everyone agrees with you. Not everyone sees democracy and capitalism as an appealing ideology or form of government. Not everyone wants to be a part of Western culture. And in fact some people are willing to do some very desperate things to get that point across (hence 9/11).
And I also believe that America uses this guise to interfere in foreign politics to meet their own ends. Since the Pinochet coupe in Chile I have not trusted the American government to interfere in other countries affairs. When America "brought democracy" to Chile they brought in a brutal dictatorship and forced the country into a third world state just as they were beginning to rise out of poverty. I know this because I know people that were there at the time and managed to escape to Canada. So I do not hate the US, but I do not trust the government (especially the current one) or the media, and all I'm trying to prove in this discussion is that the American people could be being fed false information. At the same time, I realize I could be too, so I freely admit I very well may not be right and I do accept views to the contrary as long as they are well informed.
Haha, touche, in response to that cheapshot (don't worry, I'm not offended, I honestly thought it was funny) I shall quote Chatterbox from GTA "Football's an American sport that teaches good old fashioned American values, like, stealing other people's land."
Honestly Dart, if you want to just agree to disagree I'm willing to do that. We are never going to agree and these posts take a lot of time to make, lol. I just don't have the energy...
creepindeth04 said:Not asleep yet.
You're right, we do have immigration problems. We have tons of illegal aliens coming from all over. But, we do have tons of laws that we're trying to pass to stop that. There's no simple solution to stopping illegal immigration. We're trying our best to fix our problems here on our homeland as well as the problems of other countries. If we pulled out of Iraq, it would do nothing to help us stop illegal immigrants.
I'm by no means trying to start an argument with 2 people :lol ...haha but I have to respond.
First off, do you have any proof of this? I'm not saying that your point is invalid. I'd just like to know a source. Also, we'd still be continuing our donation efforts if a certain hurricane didn't devastate the Louisiana and surrounding states.
SpartanEvolved
SpartanEvolved
Why does the rest of the world see the US as an evil, oil guzzling tyrant? :? The US does alot of good in the world (yes, there are always ulterior motives to even those, but the people who aren't starving to death anymore in third world countries are probablly grateful anyways)
The ban was a UN resolution from the ceasefire between Iraq and the U.S and Kuwait. It also called for UN inspecters and the Oil-For-Food program. All of which would be controlled by the UN Security Counsel, if I am not mistaken, and not the U.S.
I am willing to call a stalemate. Mainly because I am getting more and more emotional on this topic every time I post up. And I don't think anger is profitable for anyone. I hate political mind games from anyone. That includes teh U.S government. If I disagree with a politician, instead of bickering and complaining, I wait untill his term is up and vote for someone else. I as one person have little power to sway an entire government. But I have one vote that can be emensly powerful when someone's term is up for grabs.
I also have learned quite a lot from this. I now see that the U.S government and the country as a whole should loosen up a bit and see that there are others in this community. And sometimes the one who feels that they are doing the most good is actually the biggest bully in the playground. But others in the playground should see the motives before stating an opinion. And that includes the issue with Iraq. And I will aggressively disagree that the U.S is greedily trying to sap Iraq's oil supply when we have millions upon millions in reserves, and the emerging popularity of E85 gasoline.
Unlike you, I have no rebuttle. I refuse to fuel the fire any longer. I can live with a stalemate.
creepindeth04
Moderator
Strubes said:
Illegal immigration is just one of the problems and was merely an example. We have lots of other problems that as a country we should correct before we start policing the earth.