It's Idiots Like This That Insult My And The Bible's Integrity

Starrynite said:

Im wondering why people would have such a stuanch uprighteousness to feel that the people are doing wrong that they must pickett fence to proclaim their point.

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Yeah, that seems pretty ridiculous to me too.

The Bible also talks about what happens to people who point out small faults in others while remaining oblivious to the large faults of their own. If these so-called "Christians" think they have the right to walk about condemning other people for their sins, then show me the Bible story where Jesus did likewise. I guess the first time around reading it I must have missed the story about the time Jesus incited an angry mob to spread fear and hatred. Which is odd, because you'd think a story like that would stand out some. Its hypocrisy, 101. And speaking of which I suppose I should reassert I haven't actually read through the whole Bible once, so I suppose technically there is a chance that story exists. :lol

Oh, and also, ditto everything Dart said.

stealth toilet said:

Yeah, that seems pretty ridiculous to me too.

The Bible also talks about what happens to people who point out small faults in others while remaining oblivious to the large faults of their own. If these so-called "Christians" think they have the right to walk about condemning other people for their sins, then show me the Bible story where Jesus did likewise. I guess the first time around reading it I must have missed the story about the time Jesus incited an angry mob to spread fear and hatred. Which is odd, because you'd think a story like that would stand out some. Its hypocrisy, 101. And speaking of which I suppose I should reassert I haven't actually read through the whole Bible once, so I suppose technically there is a chance that story exists. :lol

Oh, and also, ditto everything Dart said.

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i was thinking the same thing.

Honestly i am not the kind of person who goes around saying "god hates fags" or "god hates us all" because that sounds kinda hypocritical due to the fact that i do not believe in god, understand what i am saying?

MY personal reasons for not believing in god are: i won't worship anyone so egotistic that he would have anyone who doesn't worship him burned for all eternity and also someone who knocks up a virgin and then has the kid killed to fix his own mistakes.

In regards to homosexuality, it's a tough call. To some people it is a choice, but to some it is not, and despite their efforts, cannot change who they are or how they think.

To me, it just seems odd that God would have a hand in creating a person who was condemmed to Hell from the day they were concieved, at no fault to their own.

Well its not ignoring its the fact that the rules are being upheld in both cases. Why do todays Christians still not honor any of the Festivals of Harvest and Shelters, why do they not reframe from eating pork?

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Two instances in the Bible, one in the Book of Acts, and the other in one of the Sinoptic Gospels, where Jesus declares that it's not what goes into a man that makes him unclean (a position that the Jews held for centuries), it's what comes from a man that makes him unclean (slander, false accusations, backstabbing, etc). So because of this, all food is declared clean.

Honestly i am not the kind of person who goes around saying "god hates fags" or "god hates us all" because that sounds kinda hypocritical due to the fact that i do not believe in god, understand what i am saying?

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Nowhere in the Bible does it condone this behaviour.

MY personal reasons for not believing in god are: i won't worship anyone so egotistic that he would have anyone who doesn't worship him burned for all eternity and also someone who knocks up a virgin and then has the kid killed to fix his own mistakes.

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That opinion sounds pretty egotistical to me. "worship" in a biblical way is not necessarily bowing down and staying there. It's more like the relationship a small child has with his dad. The small child loves his dad unconditionally, and is amazed at all he can do. That's why Christians have the right to call God "Father", or "Dad." Because He is out Heavenly Father. Not just "God."

The separation part I find funny. Because it's probably the number one charge an atheist or agnostic has against God. "No fair! He's gonna send us to hell because we don't like him!" God doesn't "send" anyone to hell. People who refuse to give God the time of day will spend eternity separated from God. After all, it's your choice. Besides, wouldn't it be "hell" for those who reject God to have to be in His presence for eternity? Quit the boo-hoo stand. Because it'w really what you wanted anyway.

How did God make a mistake? Jesus came to die for our sins because God made a mistake? Either it's borne of a slanderous accusation aimed at insulting someone, or complete ignorance of the Gospel. God didn't make a mistake. Adam sinned, not God. I'll leave this for now. Because I'd like you to explain yourself before I make a 30,000 word rebuttal.

Dart said:

Two instances in the Bible, one in the Book of Acts, and the other in one of the Sinoptic Gospels, where Jesus declares that it's not what goes into a man that makes him unclean (a position that the Jews held for centuries), it's what comes from a man that makes him unclean (slander, false accusations, backstabbing, etc). So because of this, all food is declared clean.

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So that would mean that homosexuality was essentially not declared as being wrong anymore?

Dart said:

The separation part I find funny. Because it's probably the number one charge an atheist or agnostic has against God. "No fair! He's gonna send us to hell because we don't like him!" God doesn't "send" anyone to hell. People who refuse to give God the time of day will spend eternity separated from God. After all, it's your choice. Besides, wouldn't it be "hell" for those who reject God to have to be in His presence for eternity? Quit the boo-hoo stand. Because it'w really what you wanted anyway.

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But it essentially is unfair that people are going to be punished eternally for either not believing. What about the people who were living before God had presented himself to them formally?

The problem that I have is unfortunately that it seems hard to believe that there is any life after death. People seemed to have the idea to formally declare religions to have some sort of security in have an afterlife. But being that we cant tell if there is, actually, an afterlife then it makes it seems useless to continue believing. But then being that people want to have a fail safe mechanism they attempt to wholeheartedly belive in a religion so that they can ensure themselves a place after death, if life after death exists.

When a loved one died, it just seemed that people say that they are in heaven as an angel looking down on us so that we can have a reassuring and comforting though.

Even if an afterlife exists, I find it hard that people would be eternally kept in this area of separation from God. Wouldnt it be more fair if they were able to gain access to redeeming themselves in death, I would believe that the God of the Christian Tradition is that kind hearted and full of justive and forgiving that he would forgive and spare people even after they served an ounce of punishment in the afterlife.

Of course, being that it is difficult to announce that there is a life after death I find myself in a pickle everytime.

Dart said:

How did God make a mistake? Jesus came to die for our sins because God made a mistake? Either it's borne of a slanderous accusation aimed at insulting someone, or complete ignorance of the Gospel. God didn't make a mistake. Adam sinned, not God. I'll leave this for now

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I wouldnt say that God made a mistake. But rather, we live in a sin filled world. Since Adam sinned first, it set the tone for the worlds history. A period/time of continuous wrongdoing and evil.

Zidart said:

i won't worship anyone so egotistic that he would have anyone who doesn't worship him burned for all eternity

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But isnt that a key part to many things in life and in multiple religious. You, as a believer in this get this benefit, and those not lose out. IE, as a citizen of the USA we get tons of benefits and but as not we lose out on multiple benefits and access to facilities and such. It is like a reward and punishment system. As a member of the chairboard committee of such and such company you get full medical insurance for any disease, but as the night security watch, you only get basic insurance. Could still turn out to be a life and death situation.

I was also under the belief that the only people who are literally in fire eternally are those who downright attempt to bring people away from the Christian tradition as well as those who declared it downright as wrong.

Gosh, another religion thread. Kaz, you gotta stop opening these cans of worms. :lol

Starrynite said:

The problem that I have is unfortunately that it seems hard to believe that there is any life after death. People seemed to have the idea to formally declare religions to have some sort of security in have an afterlife. But being that we cant tell if there is, actually, an afterlife then it makes it seems useless to continue believing. But then being that people want to have a fail safe mechanism they attempt to wholeheartedly belive in a religion so that they can ensure themselves a place after death, if life after death exists.

When a loved one died, it just seemed that people say that they are in heaven as an angel looking down on us so that we can have a reassuring and comforting though.

Even if an afterlife exists, I find it hard that people would be eternally kept in this area of separation from God. Wouldnt it be more fair if they were able to gain access to redeeming themselves in death, I would believe that the God of the Christian Tradition is that kind hearted and full of justive and forgiving that he would forgive and spare people even after they served an ounce of punishment in the afterlife.

Of course, being that it is difficult to announce that there is a life after death I find myself in a pickle everytime.

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Actually, many religions don't really deal with the issue of what happens when people die. A lot of religions are concerned with the here and now, and Christianity shares some of these elements as well. This is a simplistic version but; when this life and the "next life" come into conflict, Christianity does prescribe doing whatever will make the next life better, because it is longer and more intense. However, Christianity also prescribes good living here and now. "Getting into heaven" isn't the sole motivation of a Christian, making this life as good as possible for everyone around them, and in doing so making their own life better, is really the ultimate goal. People pray for salvation, yes, but they also pray for things here and now: courage, health, comfort, food, employment, and so on. The teachings of the Bible are directions for how to be a good and happy person here and now, but the first step is realizing that there is no lasting happiness outside or apart from God (hence the first commandment).

Being a Christian isn't all about making the after life a place you'll want to be, its about making the most out of this life as well.

And any notion that Christianity provides comfort and security because of its description of the afterlife is a bit "off." I've always found people would much rather take comfort in believing there are no consequences for their actions, and that they'll never have to answer for the bad things they've done but have thus far gotten away with. Believing in God and an afterlife that is either with or apart from Him forces people to acknowledge all the terrible things they've done. It is neither comfortable or secure, because you begin to realize just how easy it can be to do something you know is wrong out of selfishness, or pride, or shame, and so on. The comfort comes in when you realize you can ask for God's help to be the person He wants you to be. The uncomfortable part is acknowledging just how often and how much help you need.

But that's enough for now.

Dart said:

That opinion sounds pretty egotistical to me. "worship" in a biblical way is not necessarily bowing down and staying there. It's more like the relationship a small child has with his dad. The small child loves his dad unconditionally, and is amazed at all he can do. That's why Christians have the right to call God "Father", or "Dad." Because He is out Heavenly Father. Not just "God."

The separation part I find funny. Because it's probably the number one charge an atheist or agnostic has against God. "No fair! He's gonna send us to hell because we don't like him!" God doesn't "send" anyone to hell. People who refuse to give God the time of day will spend eternity separated from God. After all, it's your choice. Besides, wouldn't it be "hell" for those who reject God to have to be in His presence for eternity? Quit the boo-hoo stand. Because it'w really what you wanted anyway.

How did God make a mistake? Jesus came to die for our sins because God made a mistake? Either it's borne of a slanderous accusation aimed at insulting someone, or complete ignorance of the Gospel. God didn't make a mistake. Adam sinned, not God. I'll leave this for now. Because I'd like you to explain yourself before I make a 30,000 word rebuttal.

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well i am sorry, my intention wasn't to make it sound egotistical, i was just explaining my reasons, and a friend did tell me that the vibe of my post was as if i was too good for god, but i didn't mean that.

but as people who have beliefs and that they defend what they believe and don't believe in, i will do the same.

i didn't mean worship in that extreme way but again my post was really blunt and i am sorry about that, i just don't believe in god, neither as a father nor as a sacred deity as a result to me is kind of egotistical that my only option is to "burn in hell" even if i am a person of goodwill and very strong morals, to me it is very rude that you tell me to "Quit the boo-hoo stand" because it feels like you are confirming the reason why i am not christian, and that reason is "believe or burn there is no other way" i just don't agree with that, is like with presidents, i might not agree with them but that doesn't mean the president is going to send me to Jail unless i take some sort of action against him, and this also applies for jobs and other types of scenarios (though in my country and in cuba if you express your negative opinion towards the leader, you will spend the night in jail, lose your job or in the worst cases... die) but you are right, to me it is not fair and it makes no sense.

i'll be honest and admit ignorance, i understand what you said and you are right, but to me it still cruel that he let his son sacrifice himself for the sake of the creatures that god himself created, you could say he did it for love but once again i don't agree with that.

now let me tell you where i stand. I used to study in a catholic elementary school and at some point i did believe in god i even did my first communion, but after that i just really started disagreeing with god as i explained before, i never saw his actions and i lost faith in him and started believing more in other different things like my own morals (which are actually very void of sin by some people's standards.... the only thing that might be called a "sin" would be my lack of belief in god and my sexual orientation)
I believe that everyone reincarnates after they die, and their next life depends on the actions they did during their present life, and also i believe that if someone desires to obtain something or fulfill a dream they have to work hard with an equal force of will and determination to make it possible, i also believe everyone is the god of their own world, everyone can change their world they way they want it to be if they make a huge effort to do it (example: how miyamoto created mario and as a result changed the lives of many gamers), last but not least i believe the world is shaped like it is because we humans are here to observe it the way it is, and we are curious of why everything happens and how it happens if there were no creatures to observe the universe then technically how do we know there is an universe, we know dinosaurs existed because we found bones, we know a 10 dollar bill is work $10 because everyone in this country agrees to that, and we know that mr mustard killed the guy with the gun at the kitchen there is undeniable proof of it (though in court some people might lie or forge evidence, i believe they will get what they deserve sooner or later) i guess you could say i am a "seeing is believing" person though i wouldn't flat out state something doesn't exist unless there is proof against it (example: i can trust my friends, and i can't really say that god doesn't exist because i have no proof against that)

Please i hope you understand where i stand, i am sorry that i didn't word my beliefs in a correct way in my last post, it is not my intention to start a religious debate, in fact i am only answering to Dart due to the fact that i was asked to explain myself, please i know my beliefs are nothing like any other religion in the world, they are only my way of living and my philosophy and even i know i sometimes stray away from it but it is still what i believe is my truth and i do not think is better than anybody else way of living either.

(this has got to be the biggest post i ever written.... but is because i want to make my point as clear as the sky)

well i am sorry, my intention wasn't to make it sound egotistical, i was just explaining my reasons, and a friend did tell me that the vibe of my post was as if i was too good for god, but i didn't mean that.

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No biggie. Yet at the same time usually when someone tells me what you said, they intend it to be somewhat egotistical. So although my wording was somewhat harsh, the tone I attempted top convey was not intended to be.

i didn't mean worship in that extreme way but again my post was really blunt and i am sorry about that, i just don't believe in god, neither as a father nor as a sacred deity as a result to me is kind of egotistical that my only option is to "burn in hell" even if i am a person of goodwill and very strong morals, to me it is very rude that you tell me to "Quit the boo-hoo stand" because it feels like you are confirming the reason why i am not christian, and that reason is "believe or burn there is no other way" i just don't agree with that, is like with presidents, i might not agree with them but that doesn't mean the president is going to send me to Jail unless i take some sort of action against him, and this also applies for jobs and other types of scenarios (though in my country and in cuba if you express your negative opinion towards the leader, you will spend the night in jail, lose your job or in the worst cases... die) but you are right, to me it is not fair and it makes no sense.

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I'll go into detail later, as I am taking a short break from replacing a fuel pump.

Whether or not one "burns in hell" is up to debate. Often, fire is used as an imagery of impending judgment in the Bible. My view of "hell" is what one will feel when they finally come face-to-face with the Almighty, and realized that they had made a decision that has eternal consequences. And that is eternity separated from God. Burning or not, that to me will be far worse than burning for eternity.

But like I said, someone who decides to dismiss God in this life will in the end get what they wanted; eternal life without God. Personally, I have made the choice to accept Christ as my Saviour because I realize that in this sinful state it is the only way to be with God. If I am arrogant in believing this, I am okay with it. Because true arrogance says one is right, and the wrong party has no chance to ever be elevated to the same level. I am calling others to follow Christ.

I apologize for the "boo-hoo" statement. It was a lesser of the two evils I guess.

Well, I gotta gear up to finish my job and to take a shower. I smell like I was dipped in gasoline. :sick

Dart said:

Whether or not one "burns in hell" is up to debate. Often, fire is used as an imagery of impending judgment in the Bible. My view of "hell" is what one will feel when they finally come face-to-face with the Almighty, and realized that they had made a decision that has eternal consequences. And that is eternity separated from God. Burning or not, that to me will be far worse than burning for eternity.

But like I said, someone who decides to dismiss God in this life will in the end get what they wanted; eternal life without God. Personally, I have made the choice to accept Christ as my Saviour because I realize that in this sinful state it is the only way to be with God. If I am arrogant in believing this, I am okay with it. Because

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once again i show my ignorance and misunderstanding in the matter, i guess god can be merciful even for those who don't believe in him or follow his footsteps, to be honest when my time is up and the truth is revealed to me if then i am judged by the god you speak of i will gladly tell him to judge me as he pleases because i hope that by then i had lived my life the way i wanted to.

Zidart said:

once again i show my ignorance and misunderstanding in the matter, i guess god can be merciful even for those who don't believe in him or follow his footsteps, to be honest when my time is up and the truth is revealed to me if then i am judged by the god you speak of i will gladly tell him to judge me as he pleases because i hope that by then i had lived my life the way i wanted to.

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To each his own, I guess. That's why God gave us the free will to choose.

Dart said:

To each his own, I guess. That's why God gave us the free will to choose.

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indeed, i am glad that we can all end this argument without offending each others philosophies or religion, again i am sorry my first statement had a vibe of superiority i didn't mean to.

Mai Valentine said:

So I just let it go. Let people think what they want.

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That's what I do. Easiest thing to do without arguing. :/

GamingMaiden said:

That's what I do. Easiest thing to do without arguing. :/

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Unfortunately we live in a world with absolutes so people cant simply do what they want (well it also invades other peoples feelings of safety and security). There is a clear line between doing what is right and doing what is wrong. So in all issues a right and a wrong must be declared.

Starrynite said:

Unfortunately we live in a world with absolutes so people cant simply do what they want (well it also invades other peoples feelings of safety and security). There is a clear line between doing what is right and doing what is wrong. So in all issues a right and a wrong must be declared.

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Wow, just...


Wow...

You never cease to amaze me.

Quick question, have you taken any ethics courses?

Yes Ethics was the first course I was required to take. Ethics and Applications. My paper on their being no purpose point in living was the highest scored paper in class. But hthat is beyond the point.

Starrynite said:

Yes Ethics was the first course I was required to take. Ethics and Applications. My paper on their being no purpose point in living was the highest scored paper in class. But hthat is beyond the point.

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Cool. Just trying to understand how you come to the conclusions that you do.

Starrynite said:

Unfortunately we live in a world with absolutes so people cant simply do what they want (well it also invades other peoples feelings of safety and security). There is a clear line between doing what is right and doing what is wrong. So in all issues a right and a wrong must be declared.

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Now we must define where these absolutes come from. In the eyes of Christianity, one must concede that God is the Absolute pillar of all that is true. Because man is always changing his view to suit circumstances. In other words, hypocrisy is borne out of a morality that has excluded God.

I agree and disagree on how we love in a world of absolutes. Yes, we do, when we realize that there is a Creator that is bigger than us in all ways imaginable. However the vast majority dismiss this and assert that we do not live in a world of absolutes. A sort of turning a blind eye to the obvious. So yes, in application I agree.

Starrynite said:

Unfortunately we live in a world with absolutes so people cant simply do what they want (well it also invades other peoples feelings of safety and security). There is a clear line between doing what is right and doing what is wrong. So in all issues a right and a wrong must be declared.

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I don't think there is such thing as an absolute right or wrong. If everyone wasn't so judgemental or tolerant, the world would be a better place. All well.

GamingMaiden said:

I don't think there is such thing as an absolute right or wrong. If everyone wasn't so judgmental or tolerant, the world would be a better place. All well.

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Then Hitler wasn't wrong in his responsibility of eleven million deaths during his time as dictator of Germany. Stalin wasn't wrong in ordering the death of millions in the GULAG camps. Slavery isn't wrong. Rape, murder, robbery, etc, isn't wrong. In this frame of thought, the criminals in all of the U.S prisons should be free because they weren't technically "wrong" in the first place.

When "absolute" is whitewashed from society's frame of thought, society it's self breaks down and descends into chaos. Rules and laws become mere suggestions when accountability is removed. With absolute right and wrong, accountability is intact. People who do wrong are punished in varying degrees while people who do right are rewarded with their freedom.

Absolute right and wrong does not equal absolute intolerance. It means only intolerance to the acts of people who have done wrong and holds them accountable.

Only Sith Lords deal in absolutes!

You've turned to the dark side, haven't you Dart? :lol


But seriously, I agree. If we admit that at no level is morality an absolute, or universal, and therefore subject to change, then we must admit that the morality which we currently live by is flawed, and will change. If that is true, then it isn't a matter of "right" or "wrong," but whose right and whose wrong? How can any one person judge any other person for doing right or wrong when there is no standard to which each can be compared?

And Dart rightly pointed out the Nazi regime. When put on trial in Nuremburg they tried to hide behind the idea that in their unique cultural societal environment they believed what they were doing to be right, and therefore an outsider was incapable of judging their actions. The World Court which put them on trial dismissed this as nonsense, and they were all convicted for crimes against humanity. Meaning, at some point, at some level, there is some form of morality that we can all agree upon. We have to, all order and civilization depends on it. We can argue or bicker over the application of an absolute in a unique situation, but we disagree over how to proceed morally, not over the validity of the moral itself.