My thoughts on the Zelda series and its players

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fhqwhgads

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Zelda, one of the most successful franchises, and yet another creation of Miyamoto. Quite a few people now notice the repetitiveness of the series since Twilight Princess had too much hype. None of the games are bad, yet many people have started picking out the tiniest flaws and eat away at them. People complain it's not modern enough(not one of the tiniest flaws previously mentioned), so what do they want added? Orchestrated music. But one of the best things about Zelda's music is the transition. If it was orchestrated, that couldn't happen. Still, I would love to see some orchestration in cutscenes. How about voice acting? Everyone loved Navi, right? Okay, so much for that, how about a different set-up? Oh, The Wind Waker, Zelda II, and Majora's Mask. No, wait, buncha people complained about those, too. 'Cause you want something different as long as it stays the same, right? Voice acting, you'd love it, but you hated it before. Being different, highly criticized as 'bad' because they were different. Oh darn, MM only had four dungeons. Look past that, and you'll see its amazing mood, great story, and extreme depth for the time. Wind Waker, oh it's cel-shaded. Boo hoo, now that I whine about the GameCube being too weak to effectively pull off lifelike graphics, I whine when they take a different approach, and remove the lifelike. How about Zelda II? It was a side scroller! Oh, no, so half the games were top down, and half were side scroller? It could have gone either way. Zelda II wasn't even bad, it kicked most other NES game's asses, and you know it, but since it's a different Zelda, it was bad? Zelda II was easily the hardest Zelda, and what Zelda fan doesn't want a harder Zelda for once? Not these fans, because it was on Zelda II. Where's the logic in that? All the people whining about what Zelda needs to fix has been fixed, yet you whine when they do it, so they stop. The Great Sea was a lot less empty than TP Hyrule Field, wasn't it? Oh, wait, Wind Waker was cel shaded and not in Hyrule, so it's still worse. Maybe if you wanted them to change Zelda, you'd let them for once. Think about that. They listen to the fans.
 
'Cause you want something different as long as it stays the same

That's what it is right there and what Ive been saying all along. I love almost all the zelda's especially the ones that are different. Nintendo just needs to do what they want to do because in the end you can't please everyone.
 
creepindeth said:
That's what it is right there and what Ive been saying all along. I love almost all the zelda's especially the ones that are different. Nintendo just needs to do what they want to do because in the end you can't please everyone.
But they'd prefer pleasing most, which at this rate, isn't gonna continue.
 
creepindeth said:
That's what it is right there and what Ive been saying all along. I love almost all the zelda's especially the ones that are different. Nintendo just needs to do what they want to do because in the end you can't please everyone.

QFT!

Personally I thought Wind Waker was amazing.
 
I would point immediately towards the topic in the Wii forum on where I think the Zelda franchise needs to head, but ultimately I'd like to discuss one statement already quoted in this thread.

'Cause you want something different as long as it stays the same, right?

I think what most people want, or at least what I myself want, is a Zelda that is set in the same universe, but that the universe itself is expanded. A lot of people's complaints do seem as though they are contradictory in the way you stated, that they want the same thing, while at the same time wanting something different. But I think a lot of times people just have trouble putting into words what it is they want, and as a result Nintendo seems to change all the wrong things, while the aspects of the series that seem to stagnate remain the same. For example, one thing that I think most people expected to change in Twilight Princess was the fighting gameplay. In previous Zelda games one usually just held a button to hold up their shield, and then when the moment arose they would push another button to attack the enemy. I think a lot of people were expecting the combat to be amped up considerably, possibly requiring more strategy and timing, especially with the addition of the Wii controls. While Nintendo saw fit to change many other aspects of TP one crucial part of the gameplay remained completely the same. You could easily defeat any foe by simply and relentlessly pushing the all purpose attack button, and while other elements were added to the combat system, they were rarely ever needed. One could easily pass through an entire throng of enemies by repeatedly tapping b, which was possible before.

I don't think the problem lies with the fans of the series who can't make up their mind, and I would even admit that it would be a hard balance to strike between creating something new and exciting yet familiar and true to the series, but with games like Wind Waker and TP, it seems like Nintendo isn't even trying.
 
Let's go through this, though. Zelda II, fans were shocked by the change, and quite a few didn't like it. Majora's Mask, same. Wind Waker, same. Every time Nintendo has decided to change Zelda, fans whine about it. Now, with Twilight Princess, they whine about it being the same, but really, it's their own fault.
 
I loved TP for the first half of the game then it was just repetitive doing the same things over and over and running a mile to get this or that. Too much backtracking and not enough action

Im going to get Ocarina of Time off The Virtual Console to find out what i missed
 
See, people complained about the Great Sea, but Hyrule Field was the empty one.
 
fhqwhgads said:
Let's go through this, though. Zelda II, fans were shocked by the change, and quite a few didn't like it. Majora's Mask, same. Wind Waker, same. Every time Nintendo has decided to change Zelda, fans whine about it. Now, with Twilight Princess, they whine about it being the same, but really, it's their own fault.

Ok, I'm willing to discuss this on a game to game basis here (because I am, in fact, a super nerd). Generally speaking most people fell in love with the Zelda franchise because of ALTTP, and nearly every fan that enjoyed that game also enjoyed the next game in the series, OOT. So why is it that every Zelda game since then has been receiving mixed reactions from fans?

Majora's Mask was a game that borrowed heavily from it's predecessor, from the menu screens, to animations, to characters, core gameplay, and so on. The big differences the sequel bore were the emphasis on masks and a time limit. The time limit, of course, was met with great outcries from fans who largely believed what made ALTTP and OOT so great was it's seemingly boundless worlds to explore. No one particularly liked the idea of being rushed through a Zelda game and focusing on the objectives instead of letting their curiosity lead them where it may (hopefully towards a hidden heart piece). The addition of masks as useful items made the control layout somewhat frustrating. Easily one of the least liked parts in OOT was the water temple due to the fact that you had to toggle your boots on and off in the menu screen, and every time you wanted to add or remove an item from your c-buttons you had to go back and forth between your boot screen and your item screen. It was a very cumbersome system. The addition of masks as items made this very irritating system part and parcel of the entire game. In essence, Majora's Mask took away a trademark of the series (open ended exploration) and replaced it with a tiresome gameplay mechanic. In essence, they changed what they should have kept and kept what the should have changed. Moving on...

Wind Waker was easily one of the most controversial titles in the series. The unveiling of the trailer for the game left most people literally thinking it was some kind of joke. Part of what made OOT such a great game was the fact that it felt like it was ALTTP realized in a 3d space. What most fans of the series were expecting for the first addition to the series on a new console was something akin to OOT but different in the sense that it took advantage of the technological advances. More enemies, physics systems, dynamic AI, one could say people were expecting a bigger, better, OOT. Nintendo's decision to change the graphic style to resemble that of ALTTP instead of OOT seemed like a step backwards to most fans of the series. In addition to that, everyone had been expecting a much more grand and animated hyrule to run around and "play" in, but much to their dismay fans of the series found out that there was no "Hyrule" to explore, but a "Great Sea." Now, the great sea idea was actually a neat one, but the problem was simply that it strayed to far from one of the core elements of the Zelda franchise. Once again, Nintendo tried to change the free roaming exploration feeling of ALTTP and OOT, something that should have been left alone. People didn't want Hyrule field to be different, they just wanted it to be bigger and better than it was before. Easily the most exciting part of Wind Waker for myself was when I got to go below the sea and look at the mountains and hills of Hyrule. For a split second wonder filled my heart as I began to imagine exploring the vast land I saw before me. But of course, I never got that chance, because Nintendo wanted me to explore the great sea instead. Sorry, but it's not the same thing, and it really should have been.

Twilight Princess was a much more fitting sequel to OOT, and in most respects I will have to say that Nintendo remained fairly faithful to the series. The problem with TP was that it still had all the issues of OOT that fans of the series expected to improve with the Gamecube's technology. There was little added to the combat system, the story was still just an excuse to go dungeon crawling, the game was too easy, too short, and ultimately, too late. Had TP been released at the time Wind Waker was I don't think you would hear as many fans of the series complaining as they do. TP's biggest problem was that by the time it had come out people who had been waiting for a true sequel to OOT got their kicks elsewhere. Shadow of the Colossus, RE4, Okami, these were all games that did what TP did, except better. This made TP's flaws stand out all that much more.

At the end of the day, you can't please everyone, I understand and respect that. However, when the vast majority of fans of the series are complaining about the same core issues, I think that as an artist and as a business, Nintendo is obligated to please as many fans as possible.
 
also, toilet, i would like to add to your "great sea'' points that although it was big and fun to explore, it didnt offer much freedom, you were in a boat, and it was a hassle to even turn a different direction. walking around on foot is much prefered.
 
stealth toilet said:
Big long post...

I can see what you're saying but it still kind of falls under "wanting the same without changing anything." Because we all know Nintendo can just expand on OOT or ALTTP, but eventually that can get boring as well. You can only expand on those games so much. Eventually the fans will get tired of those too. TP is the perfect example. It's not just because it was too little, too late but I feel fans finally realized (and me) that the formula is getting a little old. Which is why I personally love all the other games despite their flaws. I applaud Nintendo for at least trying something even if it failed in the eyes of fans. Im more concerned that Nintendo won't learn from their "mistakes."

At the end of the day, you can't please everyone, I understand and respect that. However, when the vast majority of fans of the series are complaining about the same core issues, I think that as an artist and as a business, Nintendo is obligated to please as many fans as possible.

As a business Nintendo is obligated, but as an artist? That's just crazy talk. Art is not something that you can just push on to people. Some people will like it and some people won't. Artist who try really hard to please their fans are usually the first to fail and Nintendo nor any other game developer should be afraid of taking risks.
 
The thing that I would argue about Majora's Mask, though, is that even though there was a time limit, there were still a lot of options that you could do, and you could use the backwards song of time to make time go slower. I remember one time I spent the three game days doing the Moomoo Farm mission where on the third day I think it was, you had to ride around on Epona and shoot aliens so that they didn't kidnap the farm's animals or something. In a different three day period, I did something totally different.
 
Hinesmdc said:
also, toilet, i would like to add to your "great sea'' points that although it was big and fun to explore, it didnt offer much freedom, you were in a boat, and it was a hassle to even turn a different direction. walking around on foot is much prefered.

Yes, I forgot to mention the changing directions part. As I mentioned before in another thread, it was like having to play a song everytime you wanted Epona to turn left or right. All in all, it was a bad change.

As a business Nintendo is obligated, but as an artist? That's just crazy talk.

I should have specified a little more clearly. So long as Nintendo is going to make additions to the Zelda series, they are required to stay as true and faithful to the series as possible. How well they do that will be determined by those who follow the series. If Nintendo, as an artist, wants to create something new and different then they cannot slap on the Zelda name. Their creation does not belong to them, they are obligated to either stop making games in the series entirely, or to add games into the series that pay homage to it's predecessors and those who played them.

It's not just because it was too little, too late but I feel fans finally realized (and me) that the formula is getting a little old.

I wouldn't say that the formula was getting old so much as it was they didn't take full advantage of the Gamecube's technology. There's nothing wrong with the Zelda formula, in fact, nearly every video game follows the same formula. Collect x to obtain y to gain access to z to collect x2. What always made Zelda great was that you could collect x3 before you ever even gained access to z, or vice versa. What made Zelda great was the fact that you were rewarded in the game for ignoring your objectives and pursuing your curiosity. To look at a wall, or a set of enemies, or a room, and think that there was something not quite right about it. Then, through a myriad of guesswork and puzzle solving, you ended up getting a bigger quiver, heartpiece, etc., something that was not necessary to complete the game but would be very helpful. The Zelda universe is perfect for this type of curious adventuring, so when you start to mess with the universe, you start to mess with the enjoyment of the game.

What Nintendo needs to realize is that there's nothing wrong with the reward system or the universe, what they seem to be getting wrong is simply the presentation of it. I disagree when you say that TP was proof that the formula was getting old. I think TP was proof that Nintendo is failing to expand the Zelda universe. TP should be commended for throwing in new weaponry (something that should change from game to game) but completely dropped the ball on the implementation of that weaponry. The great thing about acquiring a bigger quiver is that it will come in handy any time you need arrows. TP added in new weapons, yes, but they were all only used under very specific circumstances, and they rarely if ever came in handy outside of the temple they were found in. Nintendo made a bigger Hyrule field, yes, but it wasn't filled with nearly as many treasure troves as OOT's Hyrule was. You got new weapons to play around in Hyrule with in TP, but there was never really any point, or reward, for doing so.

I was planning on writing a recommendation for what I think new Zeldas need to have, but my post in the GC section of the board should suffice for what I'd like to see in future titles. Also, I have to go play soccer. :lol
 
yea, the boat thing sucked. the whole "playing songs" thing in zelda games has always turned me off.that was one of my favorite new aspects of TP, no songs.
 
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