Old, but hot topic...

http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=4707683

I know that this article may be a few weeks old, but it's still a very hot topic here in Arizona. And I have had this debate with some of the guys at my work. So I ask you all:

Could this flag burning have been handled in a different way??

Do you think it was disrespectful to take down our nation's flag and hoist up a foreign flag?? I understand the protesters' motives. But I still think it was wrong.

The border issues. Here in Southern Arizona, we see more illegal immigrant traffic than any other state in this country. We have seen the hundreds die in our deserts. We have had accidents on our roads, where the coyotes (immigrant runners) refuse to stop for the Border Patrol. Their overloaded vehicles often turn over, killing people inside.

The other bad part is the drug smuggling that happens along with it. Ranch owners getting their houses burned down because they shoot at runners who are tresspassing. They are shot at with automatic weapons. There have been reports where Mexican Army soldiers have givven these people cover when crossing.

So, in my opinion (built from what I've seen), we as a nation have a huge problem. The legal channels are clogged with ineficiency and political red tape. In some cases it takes no less than a full year to get a response for a resident alien card. The money it costs to get the necessary paperwork is horrible to those who can't afford the $200 or so application fee.

How should our nation fix our problem?? Would shutting down our borders like a lot of countries around the world do? Would streamlining our immigration process be better?? Maybe even waiving the fee entirely or maybe offering some sort of payment plan to pay for it??

I am not interested in debate or negative comments. I am looking for feedback. Maybe we can figure out what these politicians can't...

Well, it's kinda ironic that you brought up this topic noticing how it was the last speech I had to give in speech class. :lol

Right now, there are several different solutions our nation's working on.

1. Stronger border patrol. One proposal would basically make anyone that's willing to become a border patrol officer, be one.

2. Stronger penalties. With today's illegal immigrants, they are put into jail for no longer than 2 weeks, then flown to their country by helicopter or plane. I like the idea of stronger penalties because if you're just putting them back, they'll keep on coming, especially knowing the worst that could happen is being flown back to their country.

Now, as for the foreign flag that was put up. To tell you the honest truth, I would've burned it too.

Shutting down the borders would work instantly I think..also very heavy jail time to illegal immigrants..say two-five years instead of two weeks.And if caught trying to enter our country illegally then they should lose all chance for ever becoming a citizen for ever.

Shutting down the borders would stop the immigrants, or at least reduce them, but it wouldn't make for good US-Mexico relations.

The fact that many of their citizens illegaly imigrat is not helping things either

maybe if they made a better payment plan for being a legal immigrant would work,

and when it is easier to pay to become a citizen, enforce stronger penalties
and maybe improve border control technology and make being a border patrol security guard a more profitable profession

A Hispanic student had brought the flag to school Thursday morning in a response to what he said was a racist remark directed at him the day before

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Obviously "a racist remark" is not the most descriptive term, but that to me seems to be the real issue. It was the racist remark that started this whole affair, so I think the real issue here is racism, not immigration.

Of course, the two are somewhat related. Bah, you crazy Americans and your immigration policies, I can't keep up. All I know is as a Canadian I'm going to have to get a passport just to cross an imaginary line a mere 5 hours drive from where I live.

SpartanEvolved said:

Shutting down the borders would stop the immigrants, or at least reduce them, but it wouldn't make for good US-Mexico relations.

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Well, so far Mexico has pretty much washed their hands of any border policy with the U.S. Bottom line is they won't help. But then again they lack the capacity to do anything. So it's no surprise.

And shutting down the borders will actually cost way too much. Most of the border line consists of warning signs and barbed wire. A modern-day Great Wall would be effective, but will cost more than it's worth.

stealth toilet said:

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Obviously "a racist remark" is not the most descriptive term, but that to me seems to be the real issue. It was the racist remark that started this whole affair, so I think the real issue here is racism, not immigration.

Of course, the two are somewhat related. Bah, you crazy Americans and your immigration policies, I can't keep up. All I know is as a Canadian I'm going to have to get a passport just to cross an imaginary line a mere 5 hours drive from where I live.

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You're right. It was a racist remark. Unfortunate, but it did stem from protests and school walkouts. Some slogans were "Reconquer America." This slogan was based on the U.S/Mexican War. Mexico lost all of what is now California, Northern Arizona and Northern New Mexico. And of course Texas gianed their independene from Mexico, and soon after the U.S annexed the land. So I am surprised that there are U.S/Mexican relations at all.

And lastly, Canada has it easy. They border a country who is filled with people who realy don't want to leave. And work is plentiful for the most part in the U.S. So in reality you all up there have no reason to have a border policy to begin with. Now if you bordered a country that was economically upsidedown, and has no oppertunity for the masses to get out of the economic distress, you'd have a major problem in no time.

Now if you bordered a country that was economically upsidedown, and has no oppertunity for the masses to get out of the economic distress, you'd have a major problem in no time.

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So I guess "land of opportunity" only applies to those who are already economically well off.  :?

And lastly, Canada has it easy. They border a country who is filled with people who realy don't want to leave. And work is plentiful for the most part in the U.S. So in reality you all up there have no reason to have a border policy to begin with. Now if you bordered a country that was economically upsidedown, and has no oppertunity for the masses to get out of the economic distress, you'd have a major problem in no time.

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So why is American policy forcing Canadians to show a passport just to enter the country? Which, I'd like to point out, is actually a violation of the free trade agreement we have with you guys. Great diplomatic effort right there...

So I guess "land of opportunity" only applies to those who are already economically well off.

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It looks like this one completely flew over your head. Because I never said they couldn't come over here.

Let's try this one again. Mexico's economy is much like a feudal system. The rich stay rich and for the most part run the show. The poor stay poor with only a bleak possibility of ever improving their lives.

Undocumented immigrants come over and look for work. If they get hurt, they have no medical insurance and the bill ends up being paid by the government. If they need anything else, they use any other public system. Which again is paid by taxes from citizens. Immigrant workers don't pay taxes when they work. So the citizens pay them.

And that's if they make it. Every year hundreds undocumented immigrants die in the Sonoran Desert and Mojave Desert. They walk over with a bottle of water thinking that is enough. But in reality they should have brought at least 50 gallons. If they pay a coyote and are driven over, they are either killed or severely injured in car accidents caused by high speed chases with the U.S Border Patrol or tire failures. If the coyotes get them to their houses, they are ransomed for even more money. Essentially kidnapped.

Now, if they come in with the right paperwork, they are granted every oppertunity to improve their quality of life. But they are here legally.

So my bottom line is I think your comment was completely uncalled for, and completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. I'd expect a lot more than a cheap shot from someone who doesn't quite know what is happening in the country just south of them.

Oh, and since the U.S has found people coming over the U.S/Mexican border with bomb making materials, and in some case high explosives and weapons, it's no wonder why they are asking for passorts now. We are being fair and asking everyone for passports now...

stealth toilet said:

so I think the real issue here is racism, not immigration.
Of course, the two are somewhat related.

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Do you mean the 'racist remark' was probably the 'whites' saying the mexicans jumped to boarder or something of the sort

Do you mean the 'racist remark' was probably the 'whites' saying the mexicans jumped to boarder or something of the sort

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The article said that the flying of the Mexican flag was done by a Hispanic student as a reaction to being the target of a racist remark the day before. It's the very first paragraph and is worded much better than how I just worded it, so I'd advise you just re-read it for yourself.  :lol

I'd expect a lot more than a cheap shot from someone who doesn't quite know what is happening in the country just south of them.

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Well, I did have the  :? smiley face, indicating I was inquiring to get an answer, and not making a statement. Admittedly it was somewhat sarcastic, but practically everything I say on here is.  :lol

Now, if they come in with the right paperwork, they are granted every oppertunity to improve their quality of life. But they are here legally.

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Don't you think these people tried to go through proper immigration before crossing over illegally? You said it best yourself:

And that's if they make it. Every year hundreds undocumented immigrants die in the Sonoran Desert and Mojave Desert. They walk over with a bottle of water thinking that is enough. But in reality they should have brought at least 50 gallons. If they pay a coyote and are driven over, they are either killed or severely injured in car accidents caused by high speed chases with the U.S Border Patrol or tire failures. If the coyotes get them to their houses, they are ransomed for even more money. Essentially kidnapped.

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With those kinds of odds there isn't much incentive to try to gain access to the country illegally now is there? I thought America was supposed to be a refuge for immigrants who were looking for a better life, a way to escape their own poverty ridden countries. Making it even harder to get into the country doesn't really reinforce this image now does it? And as we are now witnessing, making it harder to get in the country is still not going to stop people from getting in.

My comment was relevant in the sense that I think America should in fact take this opportunity to open its doors to immigrants. There are what, 11 million illegal immigrants working in America right now? Or perhaps those are just the statistics of illegal mexican immigrants, I'm not sure. Why not give them the correct paperwork, make them pay taxes, and let them become productive members of society? People with stable jobs and incomes are much less likely to resort to crime to earn a living, why not kill two birds with one stone? In other words, I would say you hit the nail on the head when you said:

Would streamlining our immigration process be better?? Maybe even waiving the fee entirely or maybe offering some sort of payment plan to pay for it??

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I think doing both of those things would be the best solution, at least, from what I can see.

We are being fair and asking everyone for passports now...

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Americans don't need a passport to come into Canada, but we need a passport to go to America, how is that fair? First you close your borders to our beef, then to our softwood lumber, now to our people as well? It's a nice show of diplomacy and co-operation on America's behalf to now demand we have international documents to prove our identities before entering the country.

If Canada wanted them to show passports I'm sure they could make us show them.

Well, this war on "terror" means we can't trust any other country, not even good old Canada

what if a terrorist were to come into Canada and then to the U.S. to blow up something in Michigan?

:lol stealth and your discontent for the U.S. ways.

You're right, we shouldn't have you show a passport. We should just assume that anyone coming into America from Canada is a true, honest person that couldn't possibly do anything wrong.

there were like 13 school districts where many hispanics from the schools were leaving campus and joining in the protests, and half of them didn't even know what they were protesting.

Just so everyone notices, I fact-checked a couple things I said before and found that some things I said were ungrounded. Namely the fact that requiring passports to cross the border was somehow violating a treaty between our two countries. I'm sure I've heard that is has somewhere, but that's hardly enough cause to bring it up here. Moving on...

If Canada wanted them to show passports I'm sure they could make us show them.

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Oh believe me, we are. I found out that even American citizens who come up to Canada will need to show a passport just to get back into America. This now seems an obvious thing to do, but I found it to be kind of interesting when I first read it.

You're right, we shouldn't have you show a passport. We should just assume that anyone coming into America from Canada is a true, honest person that couldn't possibly do anything wrong.

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:lol Darn rights! Of course that would be silly, especially considering the fact that the men who carried out the 9/11 attacks did get to the US through our border. But that was several years ago now, and security of all forms have already been stepped up incredibly since then. Perhaps this could be the next evolutionary step in America's "War on Terror," but it is a reactionary decision based largely on paranoia. Ironically enough America used to make it a point of pride for it's citizens to travel abroad easily and freely. It was the soviet communists who were subjugating their own people by forcing them to carry documentation of their identity at all times.

Even Prez Bush has concerns over this whole affair, stating that

"When I first read that in the newspaper about the need to have passports, particularly the day-crossings that take place ... I said, 'What's going on here?'... I thought there was a better way to expedite the legal flow of traffic and people."

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Decisions like this make you wonder when the country has finally taken enough measures to call itself secure. Will America ever feel secure? At what point are there enough precautions in place that people can relax and enjoy "freedom?" It's a slippery slope and the impacts of decisions like this make it slip all that much faster.

If you can't handle stopping for 5 minutes while your passport's checked, I don't think you could really carry out much of life's functions.

Don't you think these people tried to go through proper immigration before crossing over illegally?

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I'll answer this. It takes no less than a year for an approval response in most cases. It's also I believe a $200 processing fee (a good friend of mine just immigrated from Guatamala, and this was what he told me). In some cases people have gone up to eight years to get their resident alien papers. I understand that this is insane to wait. Especilly when the lives of these people are borderline horrific, and their dreams are possible in the U.S. My heart goes out for thes epeople, and I believe that the departments that handle these cases should be completely overhauled. I also believe that these people should not have to pay the processing fee up front because in some cases these people don't see $200 in a single year!!

Also, most of the people who cross illegally don't have the proper information. Coyotes tell people that the U.S doesn't want them, or that the processing fee is somewhere in the thousands of dollars. These lies are effective in keeping these runners in business. No illegal crossers means nobody employed to take them. The people who have the right information have relatives who are U.S citizens already. They have the money to pay also.

So the short answer is mostly no.

All the other info, Stealth, is in my PM.

Ok, unfortunately I couldn't read all the posts as I have very limited time on my hands these days. So forgive me for any redundant comments. Anyways, first off...

I havent had a chance to listen to the news lately so I really don't know what this topic is about but I do know that some of you are talking about illegal immigration, and since I live in Los Angeles and am also Mexican then I defintely know what's going on with that.

To the person who said that we should jail all of them longer. First of all, in California alone there are around 12 million immigrants that we know about. It would cost just way too much to do that. Sending every single one back would cost a lot also.

I really don't know what a proper solution is yet. So far all Ive heard are short term solutions that can cost this country a lot of money. Personally I think that most of these illegal immigrants, and american citizens, are just enforcing more stereotypes and fueling more racism and getting nowhere. I find it really funny, and stupid at the same time, that kids are walking out of school, when the only way they can have a better life in this country is by being educated. Im just baffled and torn by all this. I want my culture to live on, Mexico is a beautiful place and it is struggling extremely, but Im an American first and foremost. I would like anyone who comes to this country to have a great life, but we all seem to be going about it the wrong way.