People Talk About George Bush like He's The Anti-Christ,Why?

M

MR.KAZ

Lurker
Hi Members!

As I stated before,I know very little about politics,that's why I need your help.With all due respect to President Bush,I'm wondering if any of you can help me find a site that documents all the mistakes and bad decisions President Bush made.The reason I'm asking this is because several people have told me that President Bush is quite possibly the worst President ever.

What exactly has this man done to bring out so much hate from the people?Once again,I mean no disrespect to President Bush,I'm just very curious to know why everyone hates him so much as opposed to former Presidents?

God Bless,
MR.KAZ
 
MR.KAZ said:
What exactly has this man done to bring out so much hate from the people?Once again,I mean no disrespect to President Bush,I'm just very curious to know why everyone hates him so much as opposed to former Presidents?
He is incredibly unfit to be president, and has done irreparable damage to our image abroad, has destroyed countless constitutional rights and freedoms on the pretense of keeping us safe, has increased the national debt by about 5 trillion dollars with his moronic fiscal plan which involved ruthlessly cutting taxes while greatly increasing spending, and sucked us into a pointless bloody and reckless war. He is probably one of the worst presidents in recent memory.
Dart said:
People are looking for someone to blame. And George Bush is an easy target.
Somewhat true, but those who should share some of the blame usually are easy targets.
 
I haven't really looked but I highly doubt there are any websites that document every mistake he has made. I would say the reason for that is because what constitutes as a mistake can be arbitrary. What I think is a mistake, others might think is a good idea, so on and so forth.

Dart said:
People are looking for someone to blame. And George Bush is an easy target.

I would agree to a point. Sure there are many people behind the scenes that are just as bad or worse but I personally feel Bush had the power to keep things from getting this bad. Whether or not he knew how to or just didn't want to is something we'll probably never know.
 
There are a lot of factors, the crashing economy, long war that has lost its purpose in the minds of many people, a news media that stands in the opposite side of the fence politically, etc, etc, that has fueled a lot of dislike for the present administration. The President of our country is the only visible representation of our Government, so he gets all of the crap dumped on him, while the Congress and Senate hide and get away with any of their own involvement in any of the things that people don't like. We tend to forget that no President can do anything without the Senate and Congress.
 
stealth toilet said:
Everything post 9/11. I don't think he has made a sensible decision since.

People can say all the bad stuff they want, but we haven't had an attack on us since 9/11. We've thwarted terrorist attacks several times since.
 
Strubes said:
People can say all the bad stuff they want, but we haven't had an attack on us since 9/11. We've thwarted terrorist attacks several times since.
There hasn't been a single point in our history where we've had more than one major attack in eight years. Not one that I can think of at least. Just having one attack during his presidency makes his defense record pretty bad, when you consider just how few presidents have had a terrorist attack on U.S. soil during their presidency.
 
Homicidal Cherry53 said:
There hasn't been a single point in our history where we've had more than one major attack in eight years. Not one that I can think of at least. Just having one attack during his presidency makes his defense record pretty bad, when you consider just how few presidents have had a terrorist attack on U.S. soil during their presidency.

You can't pin that solely on the President though. And we've had attempted attacks within these past 7 years post-9/11...just none of them went through.
 
Yeah, Bush has the power to exert influence, but the president has enough power to start the ball rolling, or sign it into law. So, when we have a bunch of bickering fat cat do-nothings in the House and Senate, the things the president wants to get done are usually nullified. It's sad too when the idiots in both houses of Congress stop a bill that's sponsored by the president, the president is the one who gets blamed for said bill not getting passed.

Another funny thing is when the president uses "executive powers", his critics bash him for not allowing Congress or the Senate to have a say.

He is incredibly unfit to be president, and has done irreparable damage to our image abroad,

So? First off, the supposed damage is not nor will ever will be irreparable. It's an obvious impossibility. Besides, what makes the U.S unique is we don't care much about what others think about us. If that's bad, then oh well.

has destroyed countless constitutional rights and freedoms on the pretense of keeping us safe,

But oh please, can we count them? Reason being, my rights haven't changed much. I still legally possess guns (they are only weapons of mass destruction in the eyes of furry woodland creatures), I can come and go as I please, and generally have little contact with government entities. So I'd like to see the list of "countless freedoms" that have been altered.

has increased the national debt by about 5 trillion dollars with his moronic fiscal plan which involved ruthlessly cutting taxes while greatly increasing spending,

I digress. I cannot tell how bad it is. All I know is personally, my income has not been jeopardized. And being that I am a married middle-class homeowner with three kids, my world can be rocked by the slightest intrusion of the federal government within my wallet.

Besides, which president in history actually paid any attention to the national debt? Who actually made it a goal to chip away the balance and not just the interest? Personally I think we should sell the UN to someone like Switzerland. :lol

and sucked us into a pointless bloody and reckless war.

Revolutionary War casualties: 25,000. War of 1812: 20,000. Mexican-American War: 13,283. Civil War: 625,000. WWI: 116,516. WWII: 405,399. Korean War: 36,516. Vietnam: 58,209. Iraq: 4,197.

The two most common wars, Vietnam and Iraq, don't even come close in casualties. Vietnam was bloody. Iraq, in terms of casualties, is not. In fact, the Philippine-American War had 4,196 casualties, and it's not listed as common knowledge.

Pointless, maybe. But then again, if it were truly pointless, then not everyone deserves to be free. Bloody, maybe. But when compared to the other wars that the U.S has been involved in, it's not a major conflict. Reckless, depends. Vietnam was reckless. It shouldn't take the lives of 58,000 Americans to realize that something is wrong.
 
Dart said:
Yeah, Bush has the power to exert influence, but the president has enough power to start the ball rolling, or sign it into law. So, when we have a bunch of bickering fat cat do-nothings in the House and Senate, the things the president wants to get done are usually nullified. It's sad too when the idiots in both houses of Congress stop a bill that's sponsored by the president, the president is the one who gets blamed for said bill not getting passed.

Another funny thing is when the president uses "executive powers", his critics bash him for not allowing Congress or the Senate to have a say.

So? First off, the supposed damage is not nor will ever will be irreparable. It's an obvious impossibility. Besides, what makes the U.S unique is we don't care much about what others think about us. If that's bad, then oh well.

But oh please, can we count them? Reason being, my rights haven't changed much. I still legally possess guns (they are only weapons of mass destruction in the eyes of furry woodland creatures), I can come and go as I please, and generally have little contact with government entities. So I'd like to see the list of "countless freedoms" that have been altered.

I digress. I cannot tell how bad it is. All I know is personally, my income has not been jeopardized. And being that I am a married middle-class homeowner with three kids, my world can be rocked by the slightest intrusion of the federal government within my wallet.

Besides, which president in history actually paid any attention to the national debt? Who actually made it a goal to chip away the balance and not just the interest? Personally I think we should sell the UN to someone like Switzerland. :lol

Revolutionary War casualties: 25,000. War of 1812: 20,000. Mexican-American War: 13,283. Civil War: 625,000. WWI: 116,516. WWII: 405,399. Korean War: 36,516. Vietnam: 58,209. Iraq: 4,197.

The two most common wars, Vietnam and Iraq, don't even come close in casualties. Vietnam was bloody. Iraq, in terms of casualties, is not. In fact, the Philippine-American War had 4,196 casualties, and it's not listed as common knowledge.

Pointless, maybe. But then again, if it were truly pointless, then not everyone deserves to be free. Bloody, maybe. But when compared to the other wars that the U.S has been involved in, it's not a major conflict. Reckless, depends. Vietnam was reckless. It shouldn't take the lives of 58,000 Americans to realize that something is wrong.

it doesn't matter, it doesn't change the fact that the war is bloody, pointless and reckless.... and it also doesn't change the fact that he is an idiot
 
Zidart said:
it doesn't matter, it doesn't change the fact that the war is bloody, pointless and reckless.... and it also doesn't change the fact that he is an idiot

Well said, Zi :lol
 
Yeah, Bush has the power to exert influence, but the president has enough power to start the ball rolling, or sign it into law. So, when we have a bunch of bickering fat cat do-nothings in the House and Senate, the things the president wants to get done are usually nullified. It's sad too when the idiots in both houses of Congress stop a bill that's sponsored by the president, the president is the one who gets blamed for said bill not getting passed.
I blame the house and senate for the war, and the Patriot Act too, but the one person with the power to veto it proposed one and strongly supported the other. Bush had a Republican majority in the Senate and House for much of his presidency so most of the things passed in the Senate were supported by him.

Dart said:
So? First off, the supposed damage is not nor will ever will be irreparable. It's an obvious impossibility. Besides, what makes the U.S unique is we don't care much about what others think about us. If that's bad, then oh well.
Well then we should start caring because anti-U.S. sentiments is a major reason why we didn't go into Iraq with U.N. backing. France and Germany, two European countries on the security council (or Germany was at the time, at least) whose populace was largely alienated by Bush, voted against the war. They would have been far more likely to vote for the war if the call for war was being lead by someone who didn't come off as an aggressive war-monger.
But oh please, can we count them? Reason being, my rights haven't changed much. I still legally possess guns (they are only weapons of mass destruction in the eyes of furry woodland creatures), I can come and go as I please, and generally have little contact with government entities. So I'd like to see the list of "countless freedoms" that have been altered.
On a side note, the good thing about being libertarian is I get to support both people carrying guns, and other personal freedoms that are usually supported by democrats.

As for the rights that were taken away, the Patriot Act removed every right related to privacy. It gave the government the right to spy on every one of its citizens in almost every aspect of their lives (any one that could be easily listened to that is). Next, I'll have a telescreen in my living room. It also gave the government the right to search and seizure of someone's property without a warrant or their knowledge. In addition, it allowed for immediate and permanent deportation of any immigrant, regardless of how long they have lived here.

He has also overseen a large increase in extraordinary rendition, wherein a prisoner is shipped abroad and is not allowed to undergo due process. They essentially disappear and the government can do as they please with them.

The biggest problem with these things is that there is a noticeable lack of oversight or checks and balances. The deportation of immigrants is not allowed to come under judicial review, searches and seizures are reported to the victim after a waiting period that is not pre-determined (it is a "flexible standard" according to the FBI), wiretapping has literally no limitation to it, and rendition, by definition, is without any oversight. It's as though they set up the system to be abused.

I digress. I cannot tell how bad it is. All I know is personally, my income has not been jeopardized. And being that I am a married middle-class homeowner with three kids, my world can be rocked by the slightest intrusion of the federal government within my wallet.
It is the fact that this debt must eventually be gotten rid of. Bush had an unbelievably fiscally irresponsible policy and the debt it created will one day have to be paid back by the American taxpayer. He threw the budget so unbelievably far out of balance.

Revolutionary War casualties: 25,000. War of 1812: 20,000. Mexican-American War: 13,283. Civil War: 625,000. WWI: 116,516. WWII: 405,399. Korean War: 36,516. Vietnam: 58,209. Iraq: 4,197.

The two most common wars, Vietnam and Iraq, don't even come close in casualties. Vietnam was bloody. Iraq, in terms of casualties, is not. In fact, the Philippine-American War had 4,196 casualties, and it's not listed as common knowledge.
It was actually the Spanish-American War, though there was a rebellion in the Philippines soon after they realized that the U.S. wanted them as a colony.

Anyways, I was referring more to the 100,000 or so Iraqi casualties, which is comprised mostly of innocent civilians. Without the destabilization of the country caused by the war, they would not have died. Incidentally, this is also where reckless comes into play. Bush didn't consider just how chaotic and destabilized the country would be upon U.S. occupation, when a glance at Vietnam should have shown him the kind of guerrilla resistance that comes about when a foreign power enters a divided region.

Pointless, maybe. But then again, if it were truly pointless, then not everyone deserves to be free.
Regardless, it is not our job to impose our form of government upon the rest of the world. That is the very thing we criticized and often fought wars with the Soviets over. In Iran, for example, they have the sharia in place, but it has popular support. While I definitely don't agree with that kind of theocratic government, it is not our job to tell Iranians what type of government they want and what type of government they should have.
 
I blame the house and senate for the war, and the Patriot Act too, but the one person with the power to veto it proposed one and strongly supported the other. Bush had a Republican majority in the Senate and House for much of his presidency so most of the things passed in the Senate were supported by him.

So what you're saying is sole responsibility does not rest on Bush.

Well then we should start caring because anti-U.S. sentiments is a major reason why we didn't go into Iraq with U.N. backing. France and Germany, two European countries on the security council (or Germany was at the time, at least) whose populace was largely alienated by Bush, voted against the war. They would have been far more likely to vote for the war if the call for war was being lead by someone who didn't come off as an aggressive war-monger.

It was known that France and Germany was selling military supplies to Iraq, and did not want U.S interferance even though it blatantly violated UN sanctions. Two wrongs don't make a right, but our wrong made a great "I told you so." So saying that we alienated France and germany is a moot point. They were pissed because they were exposed as being in the wrong. Personally I don't care.

And how is someone calling out the UN for being lazy and incompetant being a war monger? I think the UN is a joke anyway. It has gone the way of the Leage of Nations. It has no real power to do anything other than throw a ton of troops with blue hats into hostile areas with empty magazines. The U.S should get out of the UN anyway.

I won't quote the Patriot Act bit. Because I see it as pointless. The Act doesn't mean that the FBI or CIA will put every name of every person in the U.S on a wall and throw a dart at it to see who gets harrassed today. Yes, it's a little extreme on what they can do. But at the same time I haven't seen any abuses of these powers. I don't know anyone personally who started getting harrassed by the feds for no reason.

It is the fact that this debt must eventually be gotten rid of. Bush had an unbelievably fiscally irresponsible policy and the debt it created will one day have to be paid back by the American taxpayer. He threw the budget so unbelievably far out of balance.

It should. But it won't. Integrity and politics are two parralel lines that don't intersect. And once again, if he comes up with the budget, and Congress approves it, who is dumber?

It was actually the Spanish-American War, though there was a rebellion in the Philippines soon after they realized that the U.S. wanted them as a colony.

Anyways, I was referring more to the 100,000 or so Iraqi casualties, which is comprised mostly of innocent civilians. Without the destabilization of the country caused by the war, they would not have died. Incidentally, this is also where reckless comes into play. Bush didn't consider just how chaotic and destabilized the country would be upon U.S. occupation, when a glance at Vietnam should have shown him the kind of guerrilla resistance that comes about when a foreign power enters a divided region.

Details. My point is clear.

Yes. 100,000 dead Iraqis. By either military action or simply not caring. And by that I mean they didn't bother to choose a side. So they got caught in the middle. But still, there was one source I read years ago that said nearly 8 million Vietnamese died. Still, it's no comparison. Iraq is a mere fart in a hurricane in the arena of war.
 
Dart said:
So what you're saying is sole responsibility does not rest on Bush.

It was known that France and Germany was selling military supplies to Iraq, and did not want U.S interferance even though it blatantly violated UN sanctions. Two wrongs don't make a right, but our wrong made a great "I told you so." So saying that we alienated France and germany is a moot point. They were pissed because they were exposed as being in the wrong. Personally I don't care.

And how is someone calling out the UN for being lazy and incompetant being a war monger? I think the UN is a joke anyway. It has gone the way of the Leage of Nations. It has no real power to do anything other than throw a ton of troops with blue hats into hostile areas with empty magazines. The U.S should get out of the UN anyway.

I won't quote the Patriot Act bit. Because I see it as pointless. The Act doesn't mean that the FBI or CIA will put every name of every person in the U.S on a wall and throw a dart at it to see who gets harrassed today. Yes, it's a little extreme on what they can do. But at the same time I haven't seen any abuses of these powers. I don't know anyone personally who started getting harrassed by the feds for no reason.

It should. But it won't. Integrity and politics are two parralel lines that don't intersect. And once again, if he comes up with the budget, and Congress approves it, who is dumber?

Details. My point is clear.

Yes. 100,000 dead Iraqis. By either military action or simply not caring. And by that I mean they didn't bother to choose a side. So they got caught in the middle. But still, there was one source I read years ago that said nearly 8 million Vietnamese died. Still, it's no comparison. Iraq is a mere fart in a hurricane in the arena of war.

honestly the last paragraph pisses me off to the point of boiling my blood....

so just because this war doesn't have as many deaths as other wars doesn't make it bloody. reckless and pointless??? if you are trying to defend Bush by saying that "oh this war isn't as a big of a deal as the other ones" then that's very cruel and wrong to me.

they are people... every person has a unique life, personality and family or friends.... whenever 1 person dies 10 or more will be filled with grief... hypothetically speaking imagine you live in a small town where only 10 people live in and because of a war 9 people die and you are the only survivor of course you are going to feel the same or even worse as a major city that had a 1000000 or more deaths, and what's even worse they are innocent people that just wanted to live their own lives and not fight some useless war.

"And by that I mean they didn't bother to choose a side"??? some of them chose to not even participate in this war but yet the military didn't care and killed them??? woow Talk about hypocrite so much for having Freedom of speech....

again nothing said before changes the fact that
1. the war is still bloody, reckless and completely pointless...
2. Bush is still a mindless idiot

what your points change is that Bush is not the only idiot the other presidents who fought in wars that could have been avoided are also idiots and congress is also filled with a bunch of idiots.....
 
Zidart said:
honestly the last paragraph pisses me off to the point of boiling my blood....

so just because this war doesn't have as many deaths as other wars doesn't make it bloody. reckless and pointless??? if you are trying to defend Bush by saying that "oh this war isn't as a big of a deal as the other ones" then that's very cruel and wrong to me.

You have simply missed my point. I felt it necessary to bring it down to simple numbers because liberal pundits like to use emotion to back up their claims.

My point is people are going around saying that this war is "illegal", "Immoral" and downright wrong because of "thousands of American deaths." Do I support this conflict? Yes and no. Yes, I believe that it's been a longtime coming for the Iraqi people to stop living day-to-day as if they will be killed for simply looking at someone the wrong way. Yes, I believe that everyone on this planet has the fundamental right to voice their opinions without fear and without someone telling them what their opinion is. Yes, I believe that everyone has the fundmental right to choice.

And no. No, I do not believe we did the right thing in going at it alone. I feel that aggression, no matter how noble one may feel, is a last resort scenario, and should never be relied upon or viewed as the only solution. But on the flip-side, I feel that lazyness and appeasement are equally evil. The UN failed in attempting to appease Saddam Hussein into comlying with their sanctions.

In short, the U.S failed as a "world leader" in passing off wrong actions as right actions. The rest of the world failed also, in saying that the actions of the Baath Party were horrible, but failed to care because the actions of the Baath Party didn't affect those within their respective borders. Blame abounds. And to the nations who wash their hands of it are no better than the United States.

So I appologize, Zidart. I assumed that my point was clear. But I will not appologize for stating what I feel is truth.

again nothing said before changes the fact that
1. the war is still bloody, reckless and completely pointless...
2. Bush is still a mindless idiot

Simply a matter of opinion, really. I don't support Bush in certain areas, but I don't think that resorting to insults is going to solve anything. As for the conflict in Iraq, it's a mere drop in the bucket in comparison to the 15 years of Vietnam.
 
Dart said:
So what you're saying is sole responsibility does not rest on Bush.
No, but quite a bit does.

And how is someone calling out the UN for being lazy and incompetant being a war monger? I think the UN is a joke anyway. It has gone the way of the Leage of Nations. It has no real power to do anything other than throw a ton of troops with blue hats into hostile areas with empty magazines. The U.S should get out of the UN anyway.
No, it had more to do with entering Iraq to get weapons of mass destruction that no one has yet managed to find. He went in with very little backing his motives, and it made him look like someone who was looking for a reason for war. If there had been a legitimate reason for actually entering Iraq (i.e., Iraqi aggression, like the first Gulf War), we would have had U.N. support and Bush would not have come off like a saber-rattling war monger.

Say what you will about the U.N., but with their support, we would have had several thousand more boots on the ground, and plenty of badly needed logistical support which wouldn't have left our armed forces as stretched thin as they are now.

I won't quote the Patriot Act bit. Because I see it as pointless. The Act doesn't mean that the FBI or CIA will put every name of every person in the U.S on a wall and throw a dart at it to see who gets harrassed today. Yes, it's a little extreme on what they can do. But at the same time I haven't seen any abuses of these powers. I don't know anyone personally who started getting harrassed by the feds for no reason.
So you're okay with them pushing back our rights as long as it doesn't affect you personally? Well maybe your rights haven't been violated by the Patriot Act, but plenty of people's have.

Just last year, a court found that the Patriot Act had been abused well over 1000 times, in an internal audit to the FBI. A city about 10 minutes away from me (Summit, NJ) used the act to get rid of a lawsuit involving removing homeless people from trains. They invoked something involving attacks on mass transportation. A Biology Professor in Buffalo was detained because they found benign chemicals and equipment "suspicious". Even after these were found to be benign, the Justice Department sought charges under the US Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act, based on its greatly expanded powers under the Patriot Act. The act has also been used to infringe upon first amendment rights by demanding that some twenty members of the press turn over all notes and information on an interview with a computer intruder. Don't worry though, the demands were denied by the Department of Justice, not because it was not allowed, but because the request was worded poorly. >_>

As for extraordinary rendition, its very nature makes it difficult for cases involving it to come to light, but every case of it violates the fifth amendment. As soon as a democratic congress came into play though, and Bush was no longer able to easily push anything through, a bill was passed that would require the White House to provide extensive information on the overseas detention facilities that were used for extraordinary rendition to ensure that no human rights violations were happening there.

It should. But it won't. Integrity and politics are two parralel lines that don't intersect.
Yeah, it probably will. The fact that Washington doesn't want to pay it back doesn't mean the lender won't want it back.

And once again, if he comes up with the budget, and Congress approves it, who is dumber?
The people who voted for it are idiots too, but the fact that we have a moron among morons doesn't make him any better of a president. The fact that all of his backwards policies passed doesn't reflect well on the Senate and House, but the fact that he came up with the policies in the first place doesn't reflect well on him. The fact that someone else let him be an idiot doesn't make him any better of a president.

Yes. 100,000 dead Iraqis. By either military action or simply not caring. And by that I mean they didn't bother to choose a side. So they got caught in the middle.
Choose a side? These people just tried to continue living their lives in a conflict they did not ask for and did not want and now they died because they didn't choose a side? Not because of the person that rushed into the war without considering the consequences? Not because of the suicide bomber who killed them while they were buying food at a market?

But still, there was one source I read years ago that said nearly 8 million Vietnamese died. Still, it's no comparison. Iraq is a mere fart in a hurricane in the arena of war.
I don't care how it compares to other wars. 100,000 deaths is bloody. People rightfully consider 2000-3000 deaths on 9/11 a very bloody tragedy, yet 100,000 dead is not bloody because they died in a war? Honestly, it's like excusing the Rwandan genocide because the Holocaust was a lot worse.
 
You make valid points, Cherry. It's sad, really. playing the devil's advocate in attempting to find some sort of rationale has made me sound like a staunch Bush defender. :-\

Choose a side? These people just tried to continue living their lives in a conflict they did not ask for and did not want and now they died because they didn't choose a side? Not because of the person that rushed into the war without considering the consequences? Not because of the suicide bomber who killed them while they were buying food at a market?

Bad wording on my part. I was attempting to make a point that with almost complete lawlessness, those who are able to to take up arms and defend themselves against terrorist attacks should. I understand though, that there will be many who are unable to do anything that get caught in the crossfire. Yet I see this as no better than Saddam Hussein and his cronies doing the same thing to these same people.

I don't care how it compares to other wars. 100,000 deaths is bloody. People rightfully consider 2000-3000 deaths on 9/11 a very bloody tragedy, yet 100,000 dead is not bloody because they died in a war? Honestly, it's like excusing the Rwandan genocide because the Holocaust was a lot worse.

Point lost, apparently. I digress.
 
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